Keeping It 101: A Killjoy's Introduction to Religion Podcast

RELIGION & ADOPTION: What Have We Learned?

• Profs. Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst and Megan Goodwin • Season 7 • Episode 711

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In which we review our very depressing and important miniseries discussion on religion and adoption AND play ridiculous orphan games as a reward for having done the hard things

As always, be sure to visit keepingit101.com for full show notes, homework, transcripts, & more.


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Keeping It 101: A Killjoy's Introduction to Religion is proud to be part of the Amplify Podcast Network.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:

This is keeping it 101, a killjoys, Introduction to religion podcast, which is part of the amplify podcast network, we are grateful to live teach and record on the current ancestral and unceded lands of the Abenaki and Wabanaki peoples, as well as the lands of one federally recognized native nation, the Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians, and seven North Carolina state recognized tribal entities. Increasingly, though, native folks are pushing us to forgo land acknowledgements altogether and focus on action items. Land back being one of them. And as always, you can find material ways to support indigenous communities on our website.

Megan Goodwin:

What's up? Nerds? Hi, hello. I'm Megan Goodwin, a scholar of American religions, race, gender and politics.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:

Hi, hello. I'm Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst, a historian of religion, Islam, race and racialization and South Asia.

Megan Goodwin:

We did it. Nerds, we made it through our mini series on religion and adoption. I'm so proud of us.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:

I'm also proud of us. We did do that. We did it. We did but good one. Remember when I said we would do one episode on religion and adoption,

Megan Goodwin:

you didn't even say it. You're like, what if maybe we did one episode? And I said, sure, but I think it's gonna be more than one episode. Maybe we'll do two.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:

It turns out there were too many horrors for even just those two episodes. We needed more

Megan Goodwin:

so many horrors, just Yes, yes, right? So as is our way, let us review the horrors we do, and then we we have a couple silly games to reward our nerds for sticking with us through this really challenging and really important, deep dive into a hard and painful topic.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:

Did you say games? I did say games. I know about you. Are there going to be winners?

Megan Goodwin:

There will be winners. A winner might be you.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:

Well, the winner is going to be me. You know, I can't not compete,

Megan Goodwin:

it's gonna be me.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:

I let's get through the review. I want to crush you

Megan Goodwin:

of course. You do.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:

Let's go. I love sports!

Megan Goodwin:

Ready to decimate I'm gonna do an orphan sport.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:

an orphan sport sounds like some poor kid trying to do a three legged race with no one to join them.

Megan Goodwin:

Oh no, see, in my mind, because, as we've talked about, the kids are always the football. They were playing croquet, but with the orphans and not with the porcupines, like in Alice in Wonderland, it was bad. It got dark real fast,

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:

yeah? Like, I'm the ball. I don't care for that.

Megan Goodwin:

No, you shouldn't. It's bad. That was the point of the series.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:

Let's, let's get into the wrap up. Yeah.

Megan Goodwin:

Okay, fine. What did we do?

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:

Well in Episode 703 which was our overview, our kickoff episode with primary sources, we gave you nerds an overview of religion and adoption, including how several religious traditions differ on how or if adoption should happen, but also the ways that the US adoption industry has always, always, always been rooted in white Christian nationalism. We even resurrected primary sources.

Megan Goodwin:

Primary sources, yeah, it's gonna hold it back. I was, I was holding on to it because it's trying not to make it about me, but I'll do it again. Primary sources.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:

We even resurrected Megan's favorite segment to share how religion and adoption has shaped the lives of your own humble, gorgeous podcast hosts,

Megan Goodwin:

so gorgeous, stunning

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:

and then nerds, after our overview and primary sources episode we did Episode 705 which was about adoption and religious freedom, in which we humbly explained that religions have their own ways of thinking about orphans, children without guardians, and adoption, and those things are not the same, actually at all, but the government, and that's frankly, any government at this point, has its own ways of thinking about adoption, in particular because of the transferring of a human to the care of another human state and religious definitions or legal frameworks don't always line up. Yeah? We also said in this episode, especially about religious freedom, that adoptees, plum, do not have any rights, yeah, for a billion reasons, but usually because, in an adoption system, adoptees are definitionally minors, which means that their participation or lack thereof is completely at the discretion of the adoptive parents, regardless of whatever home or lineage they came from before. In this episode, we also talked about, you guessed it, how the adoption agencies are in. Said with Christianity, not 100% but, but most, I'd put it at like 90 to 95% that history is, pardon my, ever occurring French, super fucked up, which we've gotten to but, yeah, it includes, but not limited to phrases like baby scoop.

Megan Goodwin:

Yep, baby scoop era changed and forever changed. Yeah,

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:

you're changed by the baby scoop. The way that the Catholic Church was intimately involved in scooping babies, the agencies of adoption as well as US backed Protestant organizations that promoted the removal of native children to be raised by good white Christians in order to kill the native but save the child. And that is a quote we also finally talked about in that episode how conservative activists have been using and abusing religious freedom laws for a hell of a long time now, all the while claiming that Christians are themselves oppressed. Listener, they are not, and in the history of Western Europe, they have not been that said, it hasn't stopped lawsuit after lawsuit after lawsuit claiming that the state owes nice Christian would be adoptive parents string free babies to raise in the name of their Lord. All right, that's what we did in the first two episodes Goodwin. What did we do in the final two episodes on adoption?

Megan Goodwin:

In Episode 707? We were so lucky and so grateful to get to learn about the Indian Child Welfare Act and native child removal as a genocidal strategy of white Christian nationalism from Dr Courtney Lewis, who is the founding director of Duke's Native American Studies Initiative and an enrolled citizen of the Cherokee Nation. Dr Lewis also asked me to clarify, and we have this in the show notes, but just to be clear, because when we are talking about a subject as contentious as the theft of native children, it's important to make sure that we've got all our receipts in line. Dr Lewis asked us to clarify that the official estimates of the amount of children were moved and placed permanently into white homes is 1/3 but that doesn't include those who were left out of the official account and those whose placements were temporary. But like temporary can really vary, so that can be years and years. So when we take into account all of the children impacted by the Indian adoption project, and it's horrible offspring, estimates for how many Native children were removed into largely white Christian homes can be as high as two thirds of all of the need to two thirds of all of the native children. The series fucked me up. Man.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:

It's also important to follow that note up Megan with the idea that when we're talking about adoptees, and if you're listening, we're dropping this later, but at the time of recording, a bunch of news articles just came out blasting the Korean American Baby trade. And much like in that scenario, we know that adoption records are falsified. We know that the baby trade issue is murky. So while estimates may vary between a third and two thirds, we also know that taking the conservative estimate historically has been incorrect. We know that those numbers are purposely low, right? Because it is hard to justify a baby scoop. So I want to just tag team Dr Lewis's editorial note, yes, yes.

Megan Goodwin:

So that that episode broke me, and then we did Episode 709 which was our episode on adoption and reproductive justice. So just to kind of go over the highlights we talked about the fact that adoption of what's now the United States, no matter what else it is or could be, has always, always, always been about making sure that nice white Christian families can raise the maximum number of nice white American Christian children. Which is why, especially after roe codified the constitutional right to an abortion in 1973 rip you, regressive white Christian nationalists fought hard to insist that adoption was the solution to the problem they thought abortion was and how the proposal of adoption as a solution to infertility also really picks up steam, because, as we discussed in that episode, adoption is not a solution to abortion, because abortion is not a problem. Abortion is healthcare for people who don't want to be pregnant. And adoption is not a solution to infertility, because adoption is about a child needing a home, and not people really, really, really wanting babies, even if the reason they really, really, really want babies is because they want to love the stuffing out of them.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:

Yeah, good when I before we move on to games.

Megan Goodwin:

This is so fun too, because I'm so not competitive. So I'm like,

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:

Yeah, you're just gonna concede the win because you don't care. But I fucking love winning, so I'm gonna win my merit. But before I win, before I win, before you went meritocracy that we just made up, I think the bird's eye view of what I hoped to accomplish in these episodes. And nerds, I gotta be honest, I have been thinking about adoption since I was born on account of being an adoptee, but I found these really hard to research, like I never struggle with writing episodes, honestly, but I on multiple occasions had to be like, good when you need I actually need you to course correct, like, I don't know how to stick my toe in here without feeling all of the feelings of being a product of a traumatic system. Yeah. And so what I think we hoped to do in both blending our personal voices here and our rage as we always do, rage is instructive, rage is pedagogical and the rest. But I think what we tried to do was give folks this Venn diagram of how and when religion is intersecting with adoption, because we tend to think of those as inherently separate. And I really hope what we've shown you is that in this country and in white understandings of adoption, frankly, globally, in the Global North, you cannot actually divorce out religion. And I know we say that a lot. We keep saying religion is not done with you, but with adoption, it is. It is almost really not done with you. One, yeah, as you can make it. These are so overlapping and so intertwined, and it's like, if you pulled on one's thread, the whole tapestry would unravel, yeah? And so I hope that's what our listeners got out of these complex and long and emotionally challenging episodes. Yeah.

Megan Goodwin:

I hope so too, and that, dear nerds, is what we had to say about adoption and religion. And we know this was hard. We really appreciate you sticking with us. This brings us today, and the ridiculous games I have designed to try to shake all of this off, even though I know we and our listeners will continue to be haunted by what we have learned for many, many years to come. You so I know, bring us to the nonsense games part of our segment, Megan. Megan, are these games that our listeners can play at home. They can if they won. Or is it just, is it just for us in the studio audience. I mean, I don't see why you couldn't play along at home. Please don't play if you're driving, maybe pull over. But if you're in a safe place, to write some stuff down, you too can play Super Duper baby scooper. It's spelled with all oats, by the way, just so you know. Okay, here is the game. Yeah, bitch loves a theme. I love a theme. Oh, we both get 30 seconds to write down as many orphans or media about orphans, because I know you don't do character names, so you can just do like movie names or book titles if you want.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:

Oh, you're even making it easier for me. This is a mistake, yes and

Megan Goodwin:

no, because guess how many orphans I have lined up Justin Peter Pan alone ready go, but

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:

I didn't even imagine all of the

Megan Goodwin:

Uh huh. Well, and here's the thing is, like I am lost boys who are clearly all orphans. simply play. We're ruining it for not years at home. We're not. I'm just saying I have actively resisted looking up more orphan names from Peter Pan because that felt like cheating, and this was supposed to this was supposed to be off the top of our heads. But, yeah, can they be real people? Or do they just they can no, they can also be real. They can also be real people. I'm so excited. Okay, I'm about to pull out the most nonsense names ever. That was great. I'm seconds, yeah. So, yeah. Okay, so we both get 30 seconds to write down as many orphans or media titles about orphans as we can think of, real or fictional off the top of our heads. And then we compare lists one point poor per orphan name or media title. Okay, winner takes the prize.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:

Do our points? Do our points cancel out? If we both have the same one, it doesn't well. So actually, because this is, what a great adding, then we then it adds.

Megan Goodwin:

That was what I was gonna say. It's like they basically cancel each other out anyway. But this way the point titles or totals are higher. And I know how you like that.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:

So, uh, you know how I like that? I like soccer. A 00, game is perfectly Cromulent, yeah?

Megan Goodwin:

But if you can have more points, why don't I have more points? Yeah? No, let's, let's rank up points. Let's rank up points. Let's even, let's make them 100 points a piece. Like, why not? Great Skipper, 100 points per orphan, slash many points.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:

All right, let's go. Okay.

Megan Goodwin:

Winner takes the prize, which is mostly existential despair, about how many of our stories use children without permanent care as a plot device, and how that encourages us to not even really notice that foundational trauma as part of the character's development,

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:

you're just awarding everyone the thing I already have.

Megan Goodwin:

Yeah, that's correct. Yeah, no, we're sharing. You're welcome. This is all right. Welcome to trauma nerds. We're about to get down and dirty. Yep, yep. Okay, you ready?

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:

Yeah, I'm gonna write down initial. So I can go faster, but I'm gonna know what I meant.

Megan Goodwin:

Okay, that's fine. I'm not actually reviewing your list. I

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:

just want to make sure that the Russian judge knows I'm about to get a 10 out of 10 noted, and no bitch cannot take off points for nothing. All right, it's good.

Megan Goodwin:

I only gave you 30 seconds, because otherwise this could go on all day. All right, I'm gonna hit the button. Are you ready? I'm ready set, scoop those orphans.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:

This is hard, because I want to make so many jokes, but it's hard to write.

Megan Goodwin:

Oh, damn, that was so fast. 30 seconds is no time at all. I'm getting we had so many more. I know it's that's got 30 seconds down, right? Pens down. All right. Ilyse Rian Morgenstein Fuerst, scoop those babies.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:

All right. Here's my list. You ready? Yes. Harry Potter, Voldemort, check, Luke Skywalker, Leia Skywalker, Oliver, twist. Oliver from the music musical. Oliver. Oliver, cat from the Disney movie. Oliver, basically all of Dickens, every character that has ever been in Dickens, Lil orphan, Annie queen. Esther. Moishe, that's Moses. Mohammed, Alexander Hamilton, Bambi No. Fuck I forgot about Bambi! Batman and also Robin, okay, all right, Superman, and then I ran out of time. But the last one that I want to mention is Osama bin Laden.

Megan Goodwin:

Oh, oh, no. Okay, I'm pretty sure you definitely beat me. I didn't have enough time. Yeah, no, you only had 30 seconds. That's the challenge of the game. Okay? I had Long John Silver. Sure.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:

I have a feeling this is gonna be all pirates.

Megan Goodwin:

It's not not pirate intensive,

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:

all right.

Megan Goodwin:

Long John Silver toodles, Nibs, those were the only lost boys I remembered. I did get both Luke and Leia Skywalker, and I'm mad that you thought about Leia, because you hate Star Wars, and I was so sure that I was going to get you on Leia. Paddington, bear,

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:

yeah, always your favorite

Megan Goodwin:

Harry Potter. Both got James Hook also. I could not detail all of the Boxcar Children, but I just said Boxcar Children. I just all of them. I get one point for that. And then my last one was Mother Teresa as, like a franchise, not as a person, just as like media about orphans.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:

I have to tell you the people that we missed that I really wanted to write down, but I couldn't write fast enough. Include theory heavy, Kant. Nietzsche,

Megan Goodwin:

oh, my God, of course, you've collected the orphans.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:

Dostoyevsky. Get into the Russians and Colonel Sanders famously at orphan, Dave Thomas, famously in orphan, an ortho idea, yeah, all right, these orphans, you know, you know, neighborhood, maybe come back with so fun nerds tell us in Instagram, because that's where we are mostly these days, or on Tiktok, tell us who we missed that you think

Unknown:

you know about. I like. I need to collect my orphans, and I have many, many more in the back of my head. I just can't write. No, it was that. It's it was 30 seconds. I did not count my list. So hold on. I got 1-234-567-8910, I got 10. Orphans.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:

I got 15.

Megan Goodwin:

You win. You win. As we knew you would. I'm so happy for you. That's great. That's honestly what I was hoping would happen.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:

So I really want to do that, like Mantzoukas is like,

Megan Goodwin:

oh, man, I can't believe I left out Highlander. I'm disappointed in me anyway,

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:

all right. Is that the only game the super duper baby? It's not. It's super duper baby scoop the nation. It's drinking game to end all drinking games, Super Duper scooper, we all end in depressive drinking

Megan Goodwin:

Correct. That is correct, but no dear nerds and also dear Elise. That was not the only game that I designed for today. The other game, which is just special for you, I'm not participating. This is an Ilyse. This is an IRMF special, yes, yes. It is called Don't go chasing face waterfalls. Why? Face Off is actually a movie about adoption, inspired in this, as in all things, keep breathing. I'm sorry, silly. Yeah, that's what we were going for, because we made everybody cry and like, grit their teeth for fucking four episodes. So. Everyone should appreciate that we are of the darkest of dark humor. So very much. So get into the jokes and don't go chasing face waterfalls inspired in this, as in all things, by her aspirational besties, Bowen Yang and Matt Rogers, we shall now engage in a very special and totally used without permission, homage to their iconic podcast game. I don't think so, honey? I don't think so. Honey invites participants to engage in like, a minute long tirade about something they dislike or something they wish to clarify for their beloved readers. I have entitled our version. Are you fucking kidding me? I'm gonna put 60 seconds on the clock. Dr Morgenstein First will use that time to tell us why exactly we should and shall clearly understand face off, possibly her favorite film of all time as a secret adoption movie. All right, I'm gonna put 60 seconds on the clock. This is Ilyse Ryan Morgenstein Fuerst with, are you fucking kidding me. Her time starts now.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:

Are you fucking kidding me? Face Off. Is actually a movie about adoption, and here's why. In the first scene, we see an infanticide Nick with a tripod gun in the middle of a party, and he aims to kill John Travolta, but instead, the bull train kills his son. Immediately killed. Michael is dead. This kicks off three hours of John Wu nonsense explosions, and at the end of the movie, John 30 seconds scoops Nick Cage's baby, whose name is Adam, and they steal them. Actually, I might have inverted the names. It doesn't even matter, because are you kidding me? John Bolton comes home and he's like, I have killed Nick Cage. He is my mortal enemy. My face is back on, and also I have a 15 second I have scooped the baby. I lost a baby. I wanted the baby. My life was bad. Without the baby, I stole a criminal's baby. Actually, I told the criminal to steal his baby. It is a movie about adoption. I'm done

Megan Goodwin:

with two seconds to spare. That was Elise Ryan Morgenstein first with, are you fucking kidding me? Parentheses, don't go chasing face waterfalls. I

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:

don't think anyone knows what face waterfalls means, but I'm hoping that you are how to just get me listener, dear nerds. Wow, that was hilariously fun. That was really great. I know why Bowen and Matt do that now. Yes, we

Megan Goodwin:

should play more. Also, feel free to let us know on Instagram, what other things we should yell about. Aren't Are you fucking kidding me? Because I feel like we should bring that one

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:

back. We shouldn't just wholesale steal someone else's bit. But that was good for it. That was good and fun. This

Megan Goodwin:

officially concludes our miniseries on religion, adoption nurse. Wow. What a tradition I know. I know that's good. That's what I really specialize in, like really gentle transitions. And everything definitely makes sense. And you can definitely tell where the fuck I'm coming from at all times.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:

No, no, we're nothing if not abrupt.

Megan Goodwin:

Sure, I don't know what you mean. Once again, thanks for sticking with us. And thanks to Dr Courtney Lewis and Dr Lisa Monroe for their contributions to this series. Homework. What homework? I don't have any homework because I feel like y'all have done enough at this point. We don't have resources.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:

Just go watch face off and tell me how much you love it, because it's the greatest movie

Megan Goodwin:

of all time, and learn for yourself what a face waterfall is, and then please do it to everyone that you love. Don't

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:

ever do that to anyone

Megan Goodwin:

but wash your hands. Wash your hands for us, though, please. You can find us across social media, still on Twitter, reluctantly and instead, Tiktok, Facebook, and if none of that waterfalls your face. You can subscribe to our newsletter. There's a cute little form at the bottom of the website, which is keeping it one on one.com. Drop us a rating or review in your podcaster choice.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:

If, after you've scooped all the babies, you still want to invite us to your campus or your local bookstore to talk about the podcast or religion is not done with you. Please, please reach out to us directly, or to Caitlin Meyer, our incredible marketing and publicity Maven over at Beacon. All of this information is on the website, but just so you heard it, we'd love to come visit so let us know. And with that, peace out. Adopter renos

Megan Goodwin:

and do your homework. It's on the syllabus. And

Unknown:

I understand I'm trying to be the daily Scoop, scoop, scoo scoop.

People on this episode

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Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst

Co-host
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Megan Goodwin

Co-host