FLASHBACK: Religious Nationalism

**THIS IS A RE-RELEASE, NERDS!!!***

In which Ilyse yells about nationalism and religion and why religion and politics are never really separate, whilst Megan agrees emphatically and consumes a bubbly beverage

Keywords: nationalism (especially religious nationalism); election

Storytime: we skipped it! it's summer

Homework: Ramaswamy's The Goddess and the Nation; Baker's The Gospel According to the Klan; and a bunch of other stuff -- come on, you know how we are.

Go to the show notes page at Keepingit101.com for our very, very long list of resources. 

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Keeping It 101: A Killjoy's Introduction to Religion is proud to be part of the Amplify Podcast Network.

Chapters

• 0:00 Shock & Awe 2: Examples
• 1:38 Why & What Is Religious Nationalism
• 19:43 Shock & Awe 1: How'd That Work?
• 30:47 Primary Sources!
• 43:03 Homework!

Transcript

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst: 0:00

This is keeping it one on one a killjoys introduction to religion podcast as of 2023, we're proud to be part of the amplify Podcast Network and in 2022 2023 Our work is made possible through UVM reach grant. We're grateful to live teach and record on the current ancestral and unseeded lands of the Abenaki Wabanaki and Aqcocisco peoples and as always, you can find material ways to support indigenous communities on our website. What's up nerds? This is a rerelease.

Megan Goodwin: 0:32

Oh this is a great one to rerelease it's religious nationalism, a topic that sadly continues to dominate the news our global lives.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst: 0:43

Yeah, yeah, yeah, but I do love a smart girl summer throwback, nothing but nothing gets me thrilled like our riot girl reference plus religious nationalism. That's a different kind of electrified adrenaline surge.

Megan Goodwin: 0:59

It sure is. It sure is, and more dangerous arguably, but ya know, we know that you love to talk about nationalism and you enjoy

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst: 1:07

Oh, shredding guitar. I do I do. So anyway, enjoy nerds. This is an episode we suspect you haven't heard or it's been a while and let us know how it goes to listen to it either for the first time or yet again. You can find us on all of the social media like Twitter blue sky instant or tick tock till next time peace out nerds. This is keeping it 101 A killjoys introduction to religion podcast.

Megan Goodwin: 1:50

What's up nerds?

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst: 1:52

Hi, hello. I'm Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst a scholar of religion history and Islam. Reserve killjoys razor of patriarchy and razor of goblets of Rosae. Because it's summer,

Megan Goodwin: 2:04

Zaha? Yeah, you are. Hi. Hello. I'm Megan Goodwin, a scholar of gender, sex, sexuality and American religions. public scholarship Maven and a fan of a bubbly drink or two. Because it's summer. Yeah, in fact, it's smart girl summer. So we're riffing on the punk movements of the 70s 80s and 90s of feminist women led bands, were thinking Bikini Kill heralds of the right girls of course, were scholarship and podcasting is a place of resistance and sustenance in politics and community. And good news nerds. We have a riotous treat for you all summer for free standing episodes for you on religion and big topics y'all sounded into today's installment, religious nationalism and why you should care. Do we know how to have a good time or what?

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst: 2:53

Well, religion so bright, we gotta wear shades. So let's get started with a lesson plan. Today,

Megan Goodwin: 3:07

we're talking about religious nationalism, a set of problems near and dear to my rage, Elise's rage, so much rage, because like we've been telling you all religion is politics and political and politics, darn, you're always has a religious dimension. Religious nationalism is one of those places where separating the threat of just politics from just religion is truly impossible. Not that we think it's ever really possible, just that this is one of those phenomena where it's 100% Impossible, even to those Shut up heads who refuse to believe that religion is important. So today, we'll define religious nationalism, which means defining nationalism. And then we'll harp on why we should care by way of a few examples. This is a bit of a patented Elise morgenstein first shock and awe episode. So please, hold on your bus.

Unknown: 3:53

In short, it's our secret word of the day.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst: 3:58

Religious nationalisms position, a particular way of being religious, through identity, practice, lingua ethnic religion to racialization ones as being central to being a full citizen of a particular state. Religious nationalism also positions a specific religion usually as being inherently more compatible with being a citizen of a state. Yes, nerds, even when that state claims things like I don't know, multiculturalism and religious freedom. It's complicated because different states religious nationalisms, look well, unique to that state. But that's kind of the gist of what we're doing today. And don't worry, we're going to walk you through and point you to what to read when we inevitably don't cover everything.

Megan Goodwin: 4:45

Good times. Neat. Neat. Keeping it one on one on today.

Unknown: 4:52

Oh, girl,

Megan Goodwin: 4:56

the segment where we do some professor work.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst: 4:59

Alright Goodwin So I pitched nationalism as a smart girl summer episode. And you basically did like, okay, fine, but only since you write the scripts.

Megan Goodwin: 5:08

And accurate Yeah, and some other jokes about

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst: 5:11

this being a hard one to tackle in like 43 minutes, I think I want to jump in though since I I'm going to truly annoy every single listener with. But there isn't one definition here. So sorry, nerds, this is one of those everything is a moving part. But the sum of these parts is everywhere we look kind of episode, and we're going to need to examine it even if we're probably not going to quite pin it all down all at the same time. So since this is summer, and we know how to have a good time, the first word of the day is nationalism. It's our secret word of the day, which like for real is harder to define than it would seem. Let's start with just getting our senses of it since that often works for our dear nerds out there. Goodwin, what do you think when I say nationalism?

Megan Goodwin: 5:59

Okay, I usually shorthand nationalism as conflating national belonging, or the right to be seen and protected as a quote unquote, scare quotes. Real member of a nation with race, ethnicity, and or religion. So anyone outside that real again, please hear my scare quotes listeners. So anyone outside that real race, ethnicity, religion can be a real member of that nation and should be seen as a threat to the nation if they argue for inclusion. So when I talk about nationalism in my research, I look at the ways many Americans collapse Americanness into white supremacist Christianity. In my classes, we look at like how Japanese identity and Shinto worked to fuel military aggression in World War Two, or how partition divided the subcontinent into India, Pakistan, and what's now Bangladesh along religious lines, and how will that is still causing conflict today?

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst: 6:55

Yeah, that's, that's really helpful. I think, for me, I'm gonna I'm gonna go really, at some level basic, and say that nationalism is an ideology, which is a system of ideas, especially one that shapes worldview. So nationalism is a system of ideas that shapes worldviews. And nationalism is a kind of ideology that suggests people are a nation, and that nation ought to be sovereign. So by that, I mean, like in charge of their own ish, able to rule themselves for themselves, without anybody, like telling them what to do or how to do it. So I guess that seems simple enough, a group of people who think that they are one thing, and they should be in charge of themselves, except that when we use the word nation, we also use it to mean on nation state. So nationalism can have this double valence. When we say nationalism, nation, and that word can mean a group of people defined by say, an ethnicity or language, who do not actually have a state. That's there's, like, say, Kurds, an ethnic group in Western Asia. But we can also mean a current state like the US, who defines its nation in particular terms and ways with land with borders and asserts, through force sometimes, and through law and discourse, that its sovereignty is dependent on that definition of nation. So it's a little bit convoluted, but a nation can be a group of people, and it can be a state.

Megan Goodwin: 8:31

Okay, so if I'm understanding this correctly, nationalism is a kind of group belonging, right, which isn't necessarily tied to nation states, or what we recognize now as countries. So you can have nationalism without running your own state or your own country. But you can also have nationalism within established states.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst: 8:51

Yes. Okay. That's a lot, right. Yeah. already.

Megan Goodwin: 8:55

It's a lot. I'm tired already. It's hot out.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst: 8:57

It's already a lot. So um, listeners if you need to, since it's smart girl summer, take a pause. Have a bit have like a head bang moment. Get yourself a Rosae and come on back. Yeah, like have an icy beverage. But like, yeah, like get like something light. No one's gonna judge if you put an ice cube in it.

Megan Goodwin: 9:18

Possibly with bubbles. I love a bubbly beverage. Yeah. Okay, nationalism.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst: 9:23

Let's dive back in. So I think that would that really complex set of ideas. I want to hit the ground running with an example that I think really helps us illustrate. I want to state out loud though, that this example is one of those things that will almost certainly draw ire on the internet. It is a thing that people have lost jobs over having the wrong set of ideas about and as a Jewish woman, particularly I am both especially vulnerable and especially grumpy about it. So we're going to talk a little bit about Zionism. The now shows movement of Jews specifically in a historic moment in the 19th century to gain and maintain a so called Jewish homeland. Zionism is a movement that is both of these valances of nation before Palestine was partitioned, Zionism was a movement of people defined religio, racially and ethnically, people who saw themselves as a distinct nation, despite never having one. Right Jews didn't have a state, Zionism was the move that was the intellectual and social movement to get a state for Jews and Zionism as a as a movement demanded sovereignty for Jews and the sovereignty of Jews. But once Israel was created, Zionism served and serves as a way to maintain that sovereignty, often, with allegiance to the State of Israel as an underlying out loud have to do it. Part of it for both Israeli and non Israeli Jews alike.

Megan Goodwin: 11:07

Okay, do I have to raise a hand now? Okay, Meghan. Okay. So Israel, that's the same Israel that's like in the Bible, right?

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst: 11:17

That's an awesome question. I mean, yes and no, right. So the answer is, of course, not. Israel's a modern nation state founded a year after my dad was born. And yet, it gets that name from the understanding of the Hebrew Bibles, self imagination, of who Jews were as a group.

Megan Goodwin: 11:43

That's really helpful. Thank you. Wait, so Israel and your dad are basically the same age. But they're

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst: 11:49

a year younger might like Israel's a year younger than my dad. It is one of the things I talk about in class a lot, because it never doesn't strike me that my dad is the same age as India and Pakistan, sort of and the UN a year older than, than Israel.

Megan Goodwin: 12:07

Yeah, cuz like I knew I knew that numerically. But also,

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst: 12:13

right now, knowing it numerically is different than being like Lloyd also takes like really long walks in the morning and likes to send pictures of deer to my kids.

Megan Goodwin: 12:21

And like has cookies for breakfast like, right? Well, yeah. Smokey cookies for breakfast. Right. And it's older than Israel. Okay. Okay.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst: 12:27

Yeah. Like when you personify it, and like, I think, I think, I think dear nerds, this is not just me. Like growing down with Meghan, this is a way to hold on to how the very world we live in is so shaped by religious nationalist identities. Yes, in that vein, Zionism is an example for me that is spot on, but also throws shade at some of the OG theorists of nationalism, most of who came out of Political Science, almost all of them were white Christian men, and who claimed that nationalism equaled secular movements equaled modernity, all the while, Zionism is just sitting there, like an example that no one wants to touch, because they could not make it make sense. Zionism self definition as Jewish nationalism all the way back at its founding, blends together these ideas, like a nation of people that is defined by ethnicity, race, land, or states and of course, religion. So when Zionists were trying to figure out how to make this make sense, why Israel why this particular location, why this particular name, and it's really obvious to say just like your question, Megan, like because religion, right, the thing that ties, largely white, Ashkenazi, European Jews to the particular land of Palestine was not defined by culture. It was not defined by language. These are not Arabic speaking Jewish people, those people existed and were not always part of Zionist movements are not usually part of Zionist movements, does not start by ethnicity, because these are not Arabs. But this is an understanding of nation that exists. That booth exists and is drawn from Jewish holy sources.

Megan Goodwin: 14:18

Can I ask another question before we hop on? Yeah, one, one real quick.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst: 14:22

You could ask as many as you want.

Megan Goodwin: 14:24

There's so there's so much there's so much here, there's gonna be a long episode listeners, just just buckle up. I'm gonna show you a lot of chapter markers. Don't worry about it. What I hear you saying is that white Jews from Europe, mostly, are driving the Zionist movement in the 19th and 20th centuries, and they're imagining what is now the state of Israel as the space they're most connected to, not because they speak Arabic, like most of the people who are already living in the spot that becomes Israel, and not because they're themselves ethnically Arabic, but because they have this textual and religious connection to that area,

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst: 15:08

yeah, they are neither Arabic speakers nor Arabs, but they have a mythic history that allows the imagination of where they could be stated as opposed to stateless, as as having meaning,

Megan Goodwin: 15:26

Hey, were there people in that area that they moved into that that became Israel?

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst: 15:32

Indeed, there were, indeed, there were. And that's a very long conversation about the campaign of Zionism, which very famously said, a land for people for people without land. And that all assumed that this was like, empty in the same and like, we could make 1000 connections here like to manifest destiny in the way that the American West was imagined. But like, just like the American West was imagined as a big open expanse for settlers. That required the cleansing and removal of native capital N Americans. And indigenous capital I folk, like so too, was Palestine inhabited by people. I, I'm just gonna say I am, I have to say I'm sweaty, talking about Israel and Palestine and Zionism, because as a Jewish woman who studies Islam, there is literally no more fraught, and frankly, no more toxic subject for me to even attempt to talk about, and, frankly, rightly so. Nationalism. And in this case, religious nationalism has done genocidal violence in my name, ethnicity, religious or racial formation against part of the group of folks whose cultures make up my intellectual life and career, that doesn't change the fact that the trolls always come out when you talk about Zionism in any way, shape, or form. But it does mean that there is a there there that this movement which had the imagination of a people, the imagination of a nation that had previously been stateless, the movement of that argued for a state, and then the maintenance of that nation state is its own ideology that assumes some people can be citizens and that those people are usually of a particular religion. Yeah.

Unknown: 17:21

That's yeah, this is a lot.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst: 17:24

And it's summer. Oh, my goodness, do we need another break? Who needs a second Rosae more bubble? Or like, if

Megan Goodwin: 17:30

you're not drinking, like, maybe stand up, get a good kombucha?

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst: 17:35

There's great kombucha coach.

Unknown: 17:37

Okay,

Megan Goodwin: 17:37

so get your beverage of choice. Come back. Let's sit

Unknown: 17:43

down.

Megan Goodwin: 17:48

So I want to echo what Elise just said, this is not nationalism broadly. And Palestine Israel conflict specifically are not safe topics to talk about in the academy, people lined up on the watch lists, people get heckled and harassed and threatened on the internet and in their homes, for talking about this. But for us, it did not feel ethical to discuss religious nationalism without including this issue of Palestine, Israel, both because we live in the United States, right? So I am not a Jewish person, but I am an American person, which means Israel being the largest recipient of US foreign aid, means that Israeli state violence is also done in my name. And at the same time, theoretically, we have to acknowledge that like, nationalism is not secular. It is it is just not and ISRAEL PALESTINE and also partition will help us think through what that is. But all of this, it's so much, it's so much. We have beverages, we're taking deep breaths, we're like doing cleansing stretches, and we definitely don't want Elise to be so sweaty that she cannot finish the podcast. She's a sweaty lady already. So let's just

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst: 19:11

just out me out me.

Megan Goodwin: 19:14

I love you, but your soul is sports, your body sweats about it? Sorry about it. Um, okay, so just just get our theoretical building blocks in line so that we know where we're going. So okay, one, nationalism, is the idea that a people or a nation should be sovereign that is self ruled or self determined. Okay, to nation, when we're talking about nationalism, maybe refers to a country or a nation state. Maybe it's a group of people or a way of belonging, tied to an identity or a region that's not recognized as a country per se. And my go to example here is thinking about Sikhs and the Punjab right, like the Punjab is not a country, but it is absolutely a region that practitioners of sickie feel deeply tied to religiously, ethnically, linguistically. Yes. Okay. Nationalism also assumes that the nation that that category of belonging knows who it is, and what it needs to keep being self determined, right, like they don't want or need outside influence to tell them, how to be sick, how to be Jewish, how to be a part of this nation. So having established all of that, how do we think about the relationship between religion and nationalism? You talked about Zionism. already. I mentioned sickie and what's now India and Pakistan. And I mentioned Shinto in Japan. And you are super sweaty about Zionism, rightfully so. But what what's our big picture here? What's, what's the big takeaway?

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst: 20:57

Yeah. Okay. So I'll answer that. And then I'm going to do a little bit of a shock and awe to prove it. No.

Megan Goodwin: 21:03

But yes, do it do it shock and Ami shock me and Ami shock me shocked me shocked me with that big overview. Go. Okay.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst: 21:12

So the big picture question of the big picture takeaway, in some ways is that religious nationalism looks differently, of course, across time, place and space, because people and the nations they create are constantly changing. And I want to say that scholars of nationalism or religious nationalism, often want secular nationalism to be pitted against religious nationalism. You and I are not in this camp. We are not.

Megan Goodwin: 21:37

We're blue real. Who are they?

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst: 21:40

So I want us to say that one of our big takeaways is that when we're talking about nationalism, religion is part of the definition period. The end,

Megan Goodwin: 21:53

yes, good. Yes. Also, the sounds familiar to me, like when we said that religion isn't done with us, even if we're done with religion, so like, even states that are claiming that they're secular, probably definitely have opinions about religion and how they should do it.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst: 22:10

Yes. And also, religious nationalism is like so here's what I really want folks to focus in on religious nationalism is when religion is specifically linked up to how a nation sees itself. And that can play out in a few ways. So one of those ways could be a litmus test for who gets to be a citizen as in barring particular religious groups or ethnic groups affiliated with one religion. And it could be the it could on the flip side be an issue of a default religion.

Unknown: 22:44

So

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst: 22:45

not to bring it back to calendars again. But here's one way that you can see it, I know you got it, I got a runner, and it's just gonna stay,

Megan Goodwin: 22:52

I'm gonna do it. And then calendars

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst: 22:54

aren't by default interfaith calendars, even in multi ethnic multi religious states, nor are they scrubbed of religion entirely, Even in secular states, precisely because states imagine themselves as having a religion and in the US, the US sees itself has seen itself as a Christian nation, even as it purports to be both secular and multireligious.

Megan Goodwin: 23:22

can confirm

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst: 23:24

religious nationalism is also evident in the ways that non religious folks are barred from particular practices in public. The ways that racialization happens, the ways that oath songs and patriotic behaviors map onto an into religious spaces. It's things like swearing on Bibles for you Meghan in your primary source from back when to get married. It's saying in God, we trust on our money and under God in our Pledge of Allegiance, right. In order to prove that we are Allegiant citizens, we have to say in God, we trust creepy, it's so creepy. It's things like the National Prayer Breakfast. So even when we invite other non Christian religious members to lead that national prayer or to be in the audience, the fact that we assume when we eat, we say a prayer already assumes a particular definition of nation that has religion cooked into its very identity. And wait, there's more, or just nationalism. Religious nationalism can also show up in the ways that a state rears up to defend its sovereignty, even when the threat is made up. So my go to example, here are the so called anti Sharia laws that have swept the US in the years following, specifically 911 But also there was a bump of them after 2008 and 2009. These laws, these are the laws that folks are trying to pass barring, like barring Sharia in state, local or federal, like legal systems. So in theory they're they're barring Muslims the the idea of a Muslim from establishing their religious law as U S law where the idea here is that the very presence of Islamic religious law is a threat to your local state or national municipalities.

Megan Goodwin: 25:26

Okay, wait. So we already talked about disestablishment, and it's already illegal for anybody to make laws in the US based on religion. And like all of this is sounding very familiar to me. Like we covered approximately 1 million of these things before so why are we doing all new episode of nationalism? Did you just want to talk more? Are you not getting enough attention at home?

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst: 25:50

I mean, I always want to talk but I think nationalism gets its own freestanding episode dear nerds, because nationalism is a place where we can see the effects of religion and politics Polit politicize religion, religion in the floorboards all at once. And to be quite honest with you it gets its own episode because we are living in an age of religious nationalism. So yeah, nerds, you should know about it, even if some of the examples, dovetail overlap and sound like things we've talked about before. And for example, one of my major like, why do we care moments here is that religious nationalism is honestly nefarious, even when it rarely starts off that way. And here's where I think I'll do like a legit shock and awe. And I want to be as brief as possible. But I also want to signpost places where religious nationalism is part of the story right now, and I'm going to do my best to ignore the US and Europe, frankly. So that you know, Megan has something to say later, since I'm filibustering. The places I see religious nationalism happening right now, like not in the 1930s or 40s, not in the post, World War Two moment of crumbling European dominion, right that F now include, but are not limited to India's like vehement anti Muslim government right now, which itself includes the bone chilling lockdown of Kashmir, China's ethnic cleansing, and the concentration camps established for Uyghurs, which is a ethnic group of largely Muslims, the forced statelessness of the Ranga religious ethnic group located in Myanmar or Burma. And many, many more, I'm going to come back to to I'm gonna come back to France and Europe in a little bit. But I want to focus to get us through this next bit of our what is religious nationalism? And why do we care on a historic example that I think dovetails nicely with Zionism, but also sits right in my wheelhouse your game?

Megan Goodwin: 27:56

I'm so excited about this.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst: 28:06

All right, so as a scholar of South Asia, I'm obviously predisposed to talking us through the politics of partition or independence in South Asia, where the British colonial Imperial project dissolved into first, India and Pakistan, both east and west and later, India, Pakistan, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka. And other places, if you expand out from where Britain removed its power and control across Africa, the Middle East, North Africa, Asia, Southeast Asia. And there's no way to do that history. Like Like right now, there's no way to do that history, like right now. But there is no way to do that history without religiously defined ideas about the state. Some of those were troubling some of those responses to the so called secularity, of the British Raj British rule in India. Some of those were the responses to the inequitable ways that multi religious identities were coming to be represented in the nascent moves for a state in South Asia. Some of those were rooted in true anti Muslim and anti Hindu animosities. Regardless, we can't talk about religious nationalism in South Asia, we can't talk about how these nation states came to be India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, these post British nation states all have religious nationalism, into their histories. Were proper citizens were ethnically religiously, and often linguistically defined against the others. So to oversimplify and tell the truth, it's one of the reasons that we today imagine Pakistan equals Muslim. India equals Hindu Sri Lanka equals Buddhist Kashmir equals unsolvable. Even though each of these contemporary countries is anything but monolithic religiously. Like I argue in literally everything I write and Meghan can vouch for it because almost every word I write, this isn't nothing. This history of partition where the British literally drew lines on South Asia and said, All right, the majority of y'all live here, you get this state, the majority of y'all live there, you get this state peace, have a good time sorting that out. This, this isn't nothing. Again, this is the same age as my dad. And one year older than the combination of Zionist movements for a state in Palestine. This history isn't even history, it's not done. Modi, the current prime minister of India and the party he represents have been ruthlessly clear that good Indian citizens are not Muslims. The idea that India is for Indians and Indians are inherently Hindu is a real one in contemporary Indian politics. And that history extends yes to partition and independence. But it's especially obvious in the histories of political movements and leading governmental parties like the RSS and the BJP. And I expect that that alphabet soup means very little to most of you, and that's okay, I'm going to give you links in the show notes. But my point in putting, frankly, and putting Zionism in partition in the same episode is that I want you to hear what the post colonial division of nations looks like, how that was religiously defined, and how how being a good citizen is integral here, right? Religious nationalism cast some subjects as good in quotes, citizens, and some as literally so antithetical to the state as to be cast from it. And I want to say out loud your nerves that this can and has been the language of genocide, persecution, discrimination, bigotry, especially but not limited to legal definition. So I'm a stone cold bummer. Goodwin, can you tell us about another set of stone cold bummers, like, I don't know, religious nationalism in the US

Megan Goodwin: 32:15

had I a mirror I can. Right after the sip of my bubbly beverage peacefully,

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst: 32:24

I like that you really went and got a bubbly beverage. I'm just drinking iced water. I was like, playing a big game.

Megan Goodwin: 32:30

Yeah, I'm, I'm in at the 20 minute mark. I'm like, what if my alcohol was in my face? Okay, so sure. Let's talk about American religious nationalism listeners because you know, it's summer. I think the thing that I want to say, broadly speaking, is that America is less forthcoming about its own religio racial nationalism. I mean, yes, groups like the Ku Klux Klan exist, and it's easy to say, Oh, they said only white Protestants were really Americans. That was religious nationalism done. Yes. Cool. Not cool, terrible, but identifiable. But American religious or racial nationalism is so much more than the Klan are the proud boys are easily identifiable extremist groups, groups that you can like, go to the Southern Poverty Law Center and say, Okay, this is a hate group, Southern Poverty Law Center, and its understanding of racism is a complicated conversation for another time anyway. So we know that there are more white Christians elected to government positions than any other group. We know that we've never elected a non Christian president. And the giant swaths of the country including our current president, refused to believe that the single black man elected president could be crushed him. This shit is messy, y'all like America's history is swimming in the receipts for its white Christian nationalism. But also, tons of Americans like to claim that we're better at religious freedom and freedom in general, than anyone else. There is a hypocrisy to America's white nationalism and America's white Christian nationalism, that I don't think we see in many other forms of nationalism like Modi, he's not hiding it from you. He maybe is not saying it specifically out loud now that he is PM, but he has said it previously, while he was in charge of Gujarat, and his minister stay say all the time that good Indians are Hindus. It's out there. Yeah. Yes, like and we're excitable. Whereas you have a ton of doublespeak that happens in American political discourse, where they say they want religious freedom, what they mean is, they want white, conservative Christians be able to do whatever they want, and everybody else should just fall in line. So that's what we're looking at. We're looking at American religion to racial nationalism, but it's also not as simple Well as nationalism, Baton K, black religious nationalism like the more science temple or the Nation of Islam, these groups have done some truly remarkable work and reimagining a past and a future for black people in what's now the United States outside legacies of slavery and oppression. I am, of course building on Judith Weidenfeld again here because I'm asked. So clearly, we could do an entire season on nationalism. But the short version here is, like Elise said, nationalism is a big topic. And the specifics vary from case to case, nationalism is hard to map out.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst: 35:41

All right, nerds, we've gone a little overboard nationalism is a really big topic. But before we move on, I want to add that religious nationalism can also look like hiding religion making some religions neutral, while others are antithetical to the state. So for example, the ban on face coverings in France, right, so like France has banned face coverings, which is a direct target against some styles of Muslim modest fashion. But right now, with COVID-19, rearing its ugly head globally, France has also mandated that you have to wear a mask. So it is possible to be a Muslim woman who is both violating and, like in accordance with the law to cover her face. They have not repealed the law about Muslim face coverings, they have simply added one that says like, you have to wear a medical face mask, right. So it's not the masking that's at play here. It's the idea that religious face coverings for Muslims is not acceptable, which means this is just another set of examples where France renders Christianity invisible in its statecraft, renders Muslims and Jews to a lesser extent don't jump on me, historians of France hyper visible. So that secularity isn't so much secular. It's a religious nationalism that takes at its core the idea that religion equals internal belief, and y'all can call it secularism or Laci Tay, that's fine, but it's also straight up incorrect to a degree because that idea of secularism rests on a very real, very old definition of religion that is very Christian and is not available to all fresh French citizens. On fucking purpose.

Megan Goodwin: 37:32

Yep, yep, yep. Yes. So I'm a little disappointed in both of us that neither of us made a Goldie Hawn slash Kurt Russell joke when you said overboard. Is this summer or not? Come on. Right. So the idea that some people, some groups are just not capable of being members of the state, members of the nation is a thing that both Elise and I have written books on now. But yeah, nationalism blends together some combination of race and ethnicity and religion and language and identity and practice, and calls it real belonging, and fights to keep out anyone who doesn't fit that narrow definition of real and, or denies folks who don't fit that narrow, narrow definition, full inclusion in the nation. This looks like I don't know, claiming to be a country founded on principles of religious freedom. And then having your law enforcement agencies and legal systems target non white non Christians as not real Americans. It looks like profiling and police brutality and telling women what they can and can't wear on their heads while they're driving if they happen to be Muslim, for example, as I maybe just wrote about in the Journal of the American Academy of Religion, assuming real national belonging requires you to be a certain religion, or a certain race to speak a certain certain language or to move your body and public in certain ways, matters and shaped so much of the world around us. It truly is a life or death issue and so many places throughout the world right now. Again, as Elise said, The past has not passed on this one.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst: 39:04

No. But you know what you've heard from us, it's time to hear about us. Its primary sources,

Unknown: 39:12

primary source mass.

Megan Goodwin: 39:15

I'm thinking mind super sharp, because we have already talked to you a bunch already. So the last time we had a presidential election, it was a while ago, y'all probably don't remember. I was teaching race, religion and politics at Syracuse, like that was my job description. My students and I live tweeted all the candidate debates. So I did a lot of cussing in front of my students, especially when either presidential candidate talked about Islam or Muslims. The current president said a lot of dumb shit like Islam hates us because he is listeners a dumb shit. But the other candidate, or when we talked about Muslims when she was talking about national security, and as I cussed on Twitter, this reinforces the idea that Muslims aren't really American so that they have to prove that they're Americans by reinforcing the American surveillance state. You didn't know there were Muslims in what's now the the United States before there was the United States. American politicians are real dumb about religion nerds, please send this podcast to your elected officials and fucking vote like lives depend on it? Because they do. Yeah,

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst: 40:16

yeah. All right. I think I'm going to poke the trolls in case they forgot that we lead off with Zionism. And I'm going to tell the story where I guess I heckled someone trying to get me to sign up for a birthright trip. Now, for those of you who are unfamiliar, birthright is a program that sends Jews I think college age and a little bit older, who have never been to Israel on a free trip. Free is in quotes y'all because the trip cost someone money. And it's a settler colonial state. So it causes violence. And moreover, the goal is to change my politics, so it ain't free. But so let me just say out loud, it is a straight up project of religious nationalism anyway. Anyway, I want to remind you a few things I Jewish lady, also adopted. So you might imagine that the idea of a birthright a birthright makes me honestly fucking livid, like, livid. It makes me mad in books and songs and epic tales. I hate the idea because let's be real, my birthright is either nothing like because I'm not in the family of my birth. Or it's this like, icky hallowed orphan tale but I like genuinely hate where my quote real family unquote real birthright is the family beyond the family that raised me. And yeah, so Okay, all of that's all that's just prologue because apparently I can't shut up this episode. Anyway, this bubbly ask girl comes at me. I remember exactly where I was on on my college campus with a sign up clipboard because it's like 2002. And she's selling me on this birthright trip. And I don't know what possessed me but I just deadpan ask easily, like 400 questions she and the organization that trained her seemingly could not fathom. So I asked things like, is it my birthright? If I'm adopted? How would you verify that I'm Jewish? If adoption is fraught in Jewish communities, like my mom needed special permission, my grandmother refused to acknowledge me as kin. So why is it my right to go to Israel when it was not my mom's right to adopt me based on certain understandings of Jewish law? Would it still be my right if another family adopted me? How can my conditional maybe not maybe yes, Judaism, right because if I had been adopted by a nice Catholic family I would not have had access to this birth right. So how can my conditional Judaism have a birthright but Palestinians do not? I I remember exactly where I was on campus. I remember what I was wearing everyone with this lady was wearing I don't know if I'm embarrassed by the story or not, but girlfriend fucking loses it with me starts like yelling she suggests that real Jews want to go to Israel and maybe my not correct blood does in fact, Barney from this trip, she kind of stormed off and took a bathroom break. And I guess dear nerds the logic here is that a lack of support for a nation state in which I do not live and had not ever visited and had no right to based on the very bloodline argument that birthright purports was a problem and that nerds is my personal religious nationalism story. That was primary sources. Fucking love your family. I'm a problem from the like head TTB I am a TTB

Megan Goodwin: 43:45

I am here for all your problems because they are the best ones and starting to stop you stop every time you know it's like Will Smith summertime I'm leaning into it not supposed to sing all the things but I had a beverage so do something. You know what we're gonna skip citing sources at you today. nationalisms

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst: 44:04

are specific. We don't need a quote to unpack the deets, any more than we have in homework. We'll give you some stuff. It's summer. Let's have class outside skip a thing, shall

Megan Goodwin: 44:14

we? Yes, please. Yeah. Okay, so I guess before we head outside, don't forget notes. You still have homework I know. I know. We know. It's summer. But there's so much good work on religion and nationalism. We have barely scratched the surface and I think if nothing else, we have conveyed to you that there is a lot to know and a lot that matters about this subject. So here is some fun and also maybe not some. So fun. worked into the occupied. Here's some work to keep you occupied. I should not turn that's I should not write to you. It really did that. So I like the bubbles. Don't forget that all of this and more will be in the show notes, at least what do you recommend? Alright, gang,

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst: 45:10

I'm going to keep my I'm going to keep my recommendations Asia and India specific. I have loads and loads of lists of this. And I'm happy to post some of my set my seminars on Empire and some of my classes that I do with this stuff. But first and foremost, Peter Vanderveer is religious nationalism, Hindus and Muslims in India is an oldie but goodie, it's really clear and really well laid out. But a real gem is Sumati. Ramaswamy is the Goddess and the nation. For me. It's mandatory reading on gender, nationalism, religion and India. I have to shout out my colleague, Tom Boucher, whose work on Thai Buddhism, nationalism and identity is really compelling and really necessary. I think.

Megan Goodwin: 45:58

Tom is friend of the pod as well.

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst: 46:00

So a friend of the pod Hey, Tom, hey. I'll link to news about as promised, I'll link to news about Modi, the anti Muslim pogroms that happened in Delhi in January and February and why religious nationalism is disenfranchising. I'm also going to make sure just in case you forgot to include news pieces about Uyghurs Ranga. And anything else. I ended up shocking it on you with.

Megan Goodwin: 46:23

It's kind of a blackout. Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot. I want to say again, that you and I both wrote books about religious nationalism. Number one, we did that. So yours has a very long title that ends with religion, rebels and jihad. That is about the 1859 Rebellion. Did I get the time right?

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst: 46:45

1857. But you're, you're good, you're good. And I will we can post links to our books.

Megan Goodwin: 46:50

Okay, cool. Mine is called abusing religion. And it is straight up how white Christian nationalism uses sex to police religious difference. I also have a couple of links to things that I use in my own classes. When we're talking about religious nationalism. I have a link about the state of Israel refusing to recognize Ugandan Jews, as legitimately Jewish and deserving of the right of return. I, I really like what Hasan Minaj is doing about the BJP and Modi on Patriot Act, streaming on Netflix, both very accessible, and I think really smart. My religion and politics class is called the election. Because both because we think about elections, and because America thinks it's specially chosen by God to lead the world that is it is an elect nation. This is a late entry for a keyword listeners. So I'm going to share the syllabus with y'all lots of good stuff there. I must I must shout out my girl Kelly J. Baker and her book gospel according to the Klan, for helping me understand how frickin mainstream white supremacist Christian nationalism is. She also has some great op eds on this too, so I will more links coming your way. Finally, because summer, I'm gonna recommend that y'all check out the birthright double episode on Broad City which is streaming on Hulu. This episode asks some really interesting questions about Zionism and Jewish Women's belonging. Bonus, Tommy adorable Seth Green matchmaking on the plane encouraging redheaded Jews to pair up and bring it on down to gender down. Less I have Seth Green I've always left Seth Green. On the Twitter's you can find me on Twitter at mpg PhD, and Elise who is not a ginger at pr o f IRM F or the show at keeping it underscore 101 Find the website at keeping it one Oh one.com

Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst: 48:40

Thanks for hanging in there. Go take a go take a swim somewhere. Peace out nerds.

Megan Goodwin: 48:46

Do your homework, it's on the syllabus. But go out first and definitely put some sunblock on if you're going to be in the sun.

Unknown: 49:08

Let's bring it on down to change