We hate the “world religions” paradigm but we’re stuck with it. So this season, we’re bringing you this problematic approach to studying religion with a side of snark and the assistance of lots of smart folks who know more about these religions than we do!
Homework: is all stuff we've assigned before. You can also go back and review the first few episodes from season 1 for extra credit.
As always, be sure to visit keepingit101.com for full show notes, homework, transcripts, & more!
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Keeping It 101: A Killjoy's Introduction to Religion is proud to be part of the Amplify Podcast Network.
We hate the “world religions” paradigm but we’re stuck with it. So this season, we’re bringing you this problematic approach to studying religion with a side of snark and the assistance of lots of smart folks who know more about these religions than we do!
Homework: is all stuff we've assigned before. You can also go back and review the first few episodes from season 1 for extra credit.
As always, be sure to visit keepingit101.com for full show notes, homework, transcripts, & more!
____
Keeping It 101: A Killjoy's Introduction to Religion is proud to be part of the Amplify Podcast Network.
This is Keeping It 101, a killjoys introduction to religion podcast. For 2021-2022, our work is made possible through a Public Humanities Fellowship from the University of Vermont's Humanities Center. We are grateful to live, teach, and record on the current ancestral and unceded lands of the Abenaki, Wabanaki and Aucocisco peoples. And as always, you can find materials to support indigenous communities on our website.
Megan Goodwin:Yes, you can. What is up, nerds?! Hi, hello, I'm Megan Goodwin, a scholar of American religions, race, and gender.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:Hi, hello, I'm Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst, a historian of religion, Islam, race and racialization, and South Asia.
Megan Goodwin:And we are BACK!
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:We are!
Megan Goodwin:Huzzah! And good gravy did we need a summer break. We know that hot vaxx summer turned into a Delta wave of bullshit and we hope that you, our dear nerds, are safe, healthy, mentally... okay? And ready to learn. Because we are ready to be back in the saddle. Especially if I can maybe attach a HEPA filter to my saddle because mentally, and also immunocompromisedly, that's where I'm at.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:*sighs* I can't speak to your saddle. But I bet we can find an attachment for it.
Megan Goodwin:Mhm, mhm, mhm. I'mma make it happen.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:You, observant, dear listener, may have noticed a slightly new introduction. In 2020 through 2021, we had a New England Humanities Consortium Seed Grant. And in 2021 to 2022, we were fortunate (and frankly quite surprised) to win a Public Humanities Fellowship from one of my home bases, UVM's Humanities Center. Like before, this fellowship will help us make transcriptions possible, sponsor a new research assistant, and keep the production lights on. What's different this year is that we also have enough funding to sponsor some guests, but we're gonna get to that in a minute.
Megan Goodwin:Yes, that's right! This season is a long one-- any episode that comes out in 2021 and 2022 spring, we are calling mega season four, and it is a doozy... *It's Good to Be the King sound grab* The His ory of the World Religi
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:*laughs*
Megan Goodwin:We have asked a bunch of guests-- one or two people per episode, usually-- to share their expertise. But the point of diving into world religions and its history is because so many of you, dear nerds, are forced to teach. You might even like teaching a world religions class, or a global religions class, or a comparative religions course at a university, maybe K through 12, or primary schools, maybe as part of your work in health or business or social services-- Look, a lot of us have to do this world religions work in a lot of different places and a lot of different ways. Let's not get too far in, here, IRMF. But... the lesson's the thing wherein we catch the plans of the kings! And the flagon with the dragon holds the brew that is true. *SOUND* Anyway, this segment is where we tell you what the episode is doing.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:What we're saying is, we've heard you loud and clear, nerds. We may know that the idea of "world religions" is rooted in some white Christian imperialist nonsense (which we'll get to in a sec!)--
Megan Goodwin:*giggles in the background*
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:But that doesn't mean it isn't operating in our various institutions. And I don't just mean universities, I mean, like... the world. Everywhere we go. So we're not here to say,"Ignore the critique! Don't listen to seasons one through three!" Very much listen to season one
Megan Goodwin:*chuckles**grumbles disappointedly* through three! But-- we are here in the "History of the World:
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:So how can we do it BETTER? How can we Religions, Part One," to say, e have to confront this syst m every single day. Because we l ve in the world, and some of us even have to teach within t is paradigm-- because job, and systems-- and most of us w o want to learn about religion, that-that's you, dear nerd, are learning it in this mode with or without your knowle ge or your consent. show what's behind the curtain and also make sense of how people DO religion?
Megan Goodwin:Mm hmm. I know a mothertucking thesis when I hear one, lady. Let me say that with emphasis. Today (and every day), we're going to show you why we need to know better and do better around "world religions." Even if we're stuck with the terms and rules of a system we don't love. We frankly hate. We're real mad at. We would like to set on fire. But for right now, we're stuck with it. And so we're also going to lay out how we'll get it done in this super long season.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:Yuuuup. We're defining some terms, redefining some terms, laying down what the season is picking up, so let's fucking go. first F bomb of the season, friends!
Megan Goodwin:Yaaaas.*laughs* The 101 on today-- *clicks tong e* the segment where we do rofessor work.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:Uhhh, Megan?
Megan Goodwin:Yes, IRMF?
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:M-Maybe I'm just brain foggy after one and a half years of background pandemic stress, plus a summer away from all things Keeping It 101, but um... what is our problem with world religions? I really could have sworn we've talked about this, uhhhh, often.
Megan Goodwin:Mmmm, you are not wrong. Even if you remain, as I remain, very, very tired.*laughs* Let me remind you, being a wonderful friend and exceptional podcaster, who can see a call back from a mile away. *softly chuckles* The idea of world religions is the problem because... number one, that framework-- why we call things "religions"-- was
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:Oh, yes. Oh, quite nonsense. popularized during the height of European and later American imperialism, and operates from the starting point that Christianity, and especially Protestantism, is not only an inherent good, it is inherently above all else. So, our understanding of religion, how we call things religions, start with the understanding that Christianity is the normal way to do religion, the right way, the true way, and then everybody else is, errr, kind of fucking it up to a greater or letter- lesser extent. World religions, number two, our world in relationship to-- DUN DUN DUN-- Christians, and especially Protestant, Western European, white Christians. Liiiiike, those guys live in the world, but somehow the world means everybody else and not them. You hear that that is nonsense, yes?
Megan Goodwin:So very much nonsense. So, number three, how a religion relates to Christianity matters for how that religion ranks, or counts, or, er, doesn't, in a world religions model. Who makes the textbook, who makes the atlas, who makes the syllabus, and who doesn't?
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:Yeah, and the classic example there would be how Judaism becomes a"major" world religion, even though Jews have never been a major demographic, never controlled a world empire, never even really been a major site of conversion, but they're "major" in this list of world religions. A-And why is that? Oh, oh, wait, I know.
Megan Goodwin:*chuckles*
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:Because Christians use Jewish holy texts--which is to say the Hebrew Bible--as part of their own. So Jewish proximity to Christianity theologically, paired with Jewish European proximity to European Christians meant that Judaism got a spot in the world religions hierarchy. But again, Goodwin, I-I feel like we've talked about this before.
Megan Goodwin:Indeed, we have MoFu. Like when we said this back, WAY back, in Episode 103... *Wayne's World Noises* Talking about something like a major or a minor tradition or way of doing things suggests that there's like a real way to do it, and then there are all these other weirdo ways of doing it, which are like, cute, and I guess we'd like religious liberty, so... fine, I guess. But it's not the real way to do it, right? So, the idea of, uhh, something like, mm, let's say Islam, right? If you're explaining to people what's most important about Islam, and you say, "Well, Muslims pray five times a day, and they eat halal food, and they speak Arabic," you have said that certain kinds of certain ways of being Muslim, for example, are the real ways. And when other people do Islam in different ways, like, that's fine, but it's not the essential, it's not the most important, it's not the most valuable way of doing that religious tradition. Is that fair?
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:Yeah! And so why are we so grumpy about that?
Megan Goodwin:Well, cause it sucks.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:*laughs*
Megan Goodwin:There's-- In a space, in spaces where we're supposed to value religious freedom-- so again, Americanist, right-- so, the United States says that it values religious freedom. That means you have to value all the religions and all the way that people do religions and all the ways that people are religious. You don't get to say,"That's a real religion," and"That's, like, a cute weird thing that you do," or "That's a real religion" and like, "Ohhh, this is too weird to be allowed," right? It matters because people get valued in societies, get ranked, get employed, get paid, get in-incarcerated or not based on whether or not what they're doing looks like religion the way that we expect religion to look.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:Okay, so I hear you saying that we expect religion to look a certain way, and then we expect so called "major" religions to look a certain way, which both excludes people who do not belong to that particular religion, but also excludes people who do not present the way that we expect them to. S-So, for example, if you, like, like almost 80% of the world's global Muslim population, are not ethnically Arab or Arabic speaking, you somehow are seen as maybe like derivative or lesser than, despite being the global majority.
Megan Goodwin:That is correct.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:So it sounds like we're really mad about this world and major and minor religions model, in part because it does a lot of violence.
Megan Goodwin:Yep.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:And in part because it's covering up a history of violence.
Megan Goodwin:Yep.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:And in part because it just-- it's just flat wrong. It's just like, incorrect.
Megan Goodwin:It is incorrect.*Wayne's World Noises*
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:Oh, right. I remember saying that vaguely. I also remember us talking about world religions, like... *Wayne's World Noises* Despite its imperialist, racist, and troubling history, and overtones, and employment, defining religion does work on people-- real work on communities-- that both makes possible and restricts practice. So we can't just toss it out. It's doing stuff, it's here, and it's being used by all sorts of systems, groups, and people. It both limits and creates avenues for agency.
Megan Goodwin:Yeah. Great sum up.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:Thanks, Megan!
Megan Goodwin:You're welcome, Ilyse! *Wayne's World Noises**in present time* Party on, IRMF. I think we just did a mega 90s throwback.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:Schwing, as it were. Let's unpack, Garth.
Megan Goodwin:*laughs* So as we've said before, the world religions model is both a raging problem, AND, here to stay. Uhh, like- like COVID? Question mark? Too soon? Anyway, we can't-- sorry. And yet, always--
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:And yet, not soon enough.
Megan Goodwin:Mmm. We can't, and we shouldn't and frankly, we would NEVER tell folks who identify as Hindu that the idea of one unified Hindu tradition is a modern articulation, maybe even a modern phenomenon! And therefore, the word that they use to identify themselves as incorrect. Hindus can call themselves Hindus-- we're not the boss of who gets to be a Hindu. Even while we can point to the complicated history of that word, of that identification, of that way of thinking about being in the world. Because again, if religion is what people do (and it is), then religious people calling themselves Hindu or, uhh, Jewish or Christian, uhh, means we believe them. They get to use the words about themselves that describe who they are. But--
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:And it's a big but!
Megan Goodwin:An HUGE but--BUT, just because a system of categorization or thinking has become hegemonic--normal--doesn't mean we shouldn't point to that history, or assume the system is good or right or unchangeable. As James Baldwin teaches us over and over again, systems were made by people which means they can be changed by people. World religions helps some of us make sense of religion, some of the time. It informs how many of us(religious or not) think about religion. It also informs how many religious people name themselves and interact in the world. BUT, it doesn't work all the time. And frankly, it cannot work all the time given how rigged a system it is. It was and is designed to prioritize some religions over and above others. Guess which one-- you'll never guess. As if that tells us something interesting or profound or true about religion or how people are in the world.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:Okay. Got it. So "world religions," and the "world's religions paradigm," as it's often called by academics, is a problem, but it isn't ignorable. Because it's operative in people's lives in real ways. And not just like egghead college classroom ways, but also those too, clearly.
Megan Goodwin:Yes. Also. Yeah.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:So, so what's our plan? We're like, just taking this on for fun? With jokes? How are we teaching within and through and against this model?
Megan Goodwin:I mean, definitely with jokes. The jokes are not optional. But the rough idea here, nerds, beloved nerds, is that in these kinds of models, every religion gets its own slot. Like, Judaism gets a day, or a week, or a third of the semester, Islam gets a spot, Christianity, Hinduism, if it's my class, it's Zoroastrianism(Zoroastrianism, always a huge hit). We are going to play with this model, but we're going to focus on plurality of practice-- what people do. So we would never assume that like, all Hindus do a specific thing. There's lots of different ways to be Hindu. There's lots of different ways to be Jewish, Christian, Muslim, even Zoroastrian. Aaand, we're gonna pay attention to what people in that religion say they're doing when they do that religion.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:Yeah. So I'm going to take off my Socratic method voice and like, stop trying to be the foil that doesn't know what's going on so I can help explain this too, Goodwin. Yes! That! All of that. We're going to talk about practices within religions that might already be some of the world religions you've heard of, like Judaism, Christianity, Islam. We're going to talk about a few religions you maybe haven't heard of or can't quite get a handle on like Sikhi, like Zoroastrianism, like African diasporic religions, and we're definitely going to foreground parts of religions that you don't get to hear because of racism, nationalism, ignorance, the failings of religious literacy, and more. Which is to say that guess what? An episode on Judaism isn't going to lay out some doctrinal basics, tell you about Rosh HaShana, and pretend that that's all there is to say or know about Jews.
Megan Goodwin:Man, more homework??
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:We are instead-- *laughs* going to foreground a few ideas in Judaism, present them from multiple perspectives-- historic, regional, and orientation. So how do Jews vary within Judaism? That's the key to this- this, uh, season.
Megan Goodwin:Religion? It's complicated. Check. We are just flat out refusing to let y'all feel comfortable, which, duh. You know how we do! We are not letting you come away from an episode thinking, "Ah, and now, I know what Islam is." Nor are we sticking to a preapproved, curricularly popular religions model. We're starting our content next time, in fact, with African diasporic religions. Definitely, kind of sort of, definitely on purpose. We want to show y'all how these traditions get lumped together, get left off syllabi, left out of public conversations about religion, and, in predominantly white and non-black and nonindigenous spaces, aren't taken seriously, way, way, way, way, way too often. Even while this category reflects an entirely popular, meaningful way through which many folks make meaning and are in the world.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:And we're not doing this alone. Our Public Humanities Fellowship sponsors guests!
Megan Goodwin:Yay!
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:These guests won't be giving full interviews like we did in season three. This won't be a "Megan and Ilyse chatting with an esteemed colleague," but rather, what it will do is let guests give us tastes of their research and expertise. So Megan and I are structuring episodes around plurality and diversity within so-called cogent religious traditions. Our guests--and there's something like 15 or 16 of them!--are giving y'all the stone cold facts about something small AND something major about the part of a given religion that they know the most about.
Megan Goodwin:After all, together, we are a genius. And with the support of the University of Vermont's Humanities Center, we are a genius who can afford to modestly pay our guests, which we're really excited about being able to do this time. *Reading Rainbow stinger*
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:It's good to be the hosts! And we've got a few new segments. So for our beloved nerds who are used to us, we're moving away from some of our old segments and tried and true ones into some new ones. Primary sources--
Megan Goodwin:*sings* Primary sources!
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:-- is sadly taking a backseat this season. Ditto storytime. It's good to be the king! Orrr hosts, cause we can change stuff up!
Megan Goodwin:*giggles* We'll have some other new segments when we hit our cont8ext episodes starting next time. Today though, we're adding "A Little Bit Leave It" *Litte Bit Leave It by Chris Hughes and Kem Cetinay*
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:*laughs*
Megan Goodwin:Because I made us. *giggles* In "A Little Bit Leave It," we're letting you know what we think the most important, most interesting, or most challenging part of this topic it. It's a little bit to leave you with.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:We're stealing from our UK friends and colleagues and frankly trashy TV with "A Little Bit Leave It," which is a dumb Love Island UK joke, which has its own music video--
Megan Goodwin:*giggles*
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:And don't worry, I will link it in the show notes.
Megan Goodwin:Hooray!
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:And now everyone knows my dirtiest laundry.
Megan Goodwin:I was-- I was gonna claim it! I said I made us do it!
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:Well, yeah, but as you said in a long text message, you learned it from me, dad. So.
Megan Goodwin:I-I learned it by watching you. *giggles*
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:Alright! The point of this segment is to lay it on thick. Maybe factor 50, like a sunblock on a-- or a-- on a ginger summering in a Spanish villa because we want no mistaking what's important. Goodwin, what's a little bit to leave our listeners with? What's a little bit leave it about World Religions Paradigm for you? What do you want our nerds to take away as we just get started on History of the World: Religions, Part One?
Megan Goodwin:*laughs* World religions is a dumb way to think about religion. But, if this model makes people pay attention to how religion shapes our world and ourselves, fine. Fucking fine. Fine! Let's do this. Let's fucking go. So, a thing I like about world religions is that it's the one class I know I'll have non-humanities folks in, that it's often the only religion class most of these students will ever take, and that I am confident by the end of the class that they'll have a more complicated, more nuanced understanding of how religion works. No one's getting out of this class thinking, "Oh! Jews do Y. Muslims do Z." Nor are they ever going to look at a situation and say, "Oh, that's just about religion, and therefore has nothing to do with me, a person who does not care about religion." They'll be more prepared to see connections and consequences in relationship, but not reducible to, religion. Also, if history is any indicator, they'll leave remembering I'm mad about a COEXIST bumper sticker, but they won't actually remember why...?(That's a call back to season one, nerds.) Also, it's an email that I get literally every
semester:"Professor Goodwin, I remember we're mad about COEXIST bumper stickers-- why?"
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:*laughs*
Megan Goodwin:We're mad about COEXIST bumper stickers because it pretends like all religions are equal and also somehow represented on this teeny tiny bumper sticker. Power. The short answer is power. That's also the answer to one of the questions on my first midterm. You're welcome!
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:*laughs* I guess my a little bit leave it is just to question the word world. So frankly, I think the world part of world religions isn't just limited to religion. I think it's actually one of these portable ideas because it shows up at like, the Grammys or the Oscars. There's one category for "World Music" at the whole frickin Grammys. There's one category for "World Film" at the Oscars. So, ALL the music produced in the literal world, but not-- but NOT Britain, because we can imagine British pop stars on American radio, all the rest of the world is in one heap. Music therefore gets the silent modifier-- American or white or English speaking, maybe. World just means other. You see what I mean?
Megan Goodwin:Yeah.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:So if world religions has a similar connotation--and, you know I think it does--what does that mean for US? And I think when we're talking about world religion, for me, it means like, how do we put our classes that are thinking about these things in context--so comparative religion is tied to imperialism. And that always means that it looked like or looks like competitive religion, where Christians (and especially or maybe exclusively white European Protestant Christians), come out on top of some imaginary pyramid as if we can like win religion. Or as if studying religion, objectively, would pick a winner. I want everyone to see how this plays out in their lives. And so obviously world religions, uh, is everywhere! It's, like, you KNOW it's on calendars, nerds. And you KNOW it's about whose religions get commemorative stamps at the post office. You know, it's about first amendment rights in the US.
Megan Goodwin:Yeah, it sure is. Sure is. Pause. SCOTUS pause. Supreme Court pause. Okay, go ahead.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:We also need like an--I need you to say a little bit leave it one more time.
Megan Goodwin:That's a little bit leave it! *laughs* I'm so happy. So happy! *Little Bit Leave It by Chris & Kem* Yeah. It's a little bit leave it. But don't pack up yet, nerds! It's time for homework.*Bart Simpson Homework Sound* Summer's over, school's back in session, and y'all need to brush up on the World Religions Paradigm. Sorry! Might we suggest, a classic we've spent some time on before, J. Z. Smith's "Religion, Religions, Religious." This is his incredibly well-read, well-cited, important piece for religion nerds. Aaaand we also suggest Mallory Nye's,
"Religion:The Basics." I'm using that actually in one of my classes this semester. It is an excessively written book introducing the study of religion that, fellow academics, teaches beautifully in introductory level courses. Nye also has a great essay about decolonizing religion, which we, again, have linked in the show notes.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:Yeah, those are really important and excellent pieces. I will re-recommend (I feel like I constantly recommend this book but) Tomoko Masuzawa's fantastic, mandatory classic about world religions, called"The Invention of World Religions" is assigned. And I've got a couple of pieces on the category of religion that are publicly accessible, including a part-- a piece I wrote for the Maydan about the category of religion beyond the Euro American sources. And I've got another piece, um, publicly about how Islam came to be understood as one thing, which is to say, violent within the World Religions Paradigm. I'll link those on the show notes. And we've got a pretty brand new book, I think this just came out, um, about the constructions of religion, but through the lens of Hinduism in Trinidad, which is called "The Regulation of Religion and the Making of Hinduism in Colonial Trinidad" by Alexander Rocklin.
Megan Goodwin:Ooh!
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:So check that book out. I-I It just showed up, I, uh, admit, dear nerds, I've read the intro. So, it looks good. The rest of book looks good, I'm gonna read it too, it's assigned to me also. BIG thanks to those of you writing reviews on iTunes, Spotify, Amazon and Google. It really helps! And to show you that it helps, we're going to give you some props! Our nerds--
Megan Goodwin:Yay!
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:Our Nerds of the Week! *Fanfare* Those few we want to shout out and send some love directly to are (and these are YOUR ridiculous screen names, so,
don't blame me for it!):Splashplot, NotThatDrJ, Clutterbrooke, CandyCorn600, and Einstein841.
Megan Goodwin:I love that!
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:Thank you for your ratings and reviews! We appreciate you, Nerds of the Week!
Megan Goodwin:*laughs* What happened to the first 840 Einsteins though, is what I want to know. Mm.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:Too sinister for this NOT murder podcast.
Megan Goodwin:*laughs* Aren't all podcasts actually murder podcasts? I mean, the history of religion is not NOT history of imperial murders. I'm ju--
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:Dude, you took it to a dark place We're just trying to thank nerds!
Megan Goodwin:I'm sorry, I-I'm sorry. THANK YOU, NERDS! We appreciate you! We need the positive support, or we go to dark places. Anyway. Join us next time for more History of
the World:Religions, Part One! When we dive in with African diasporic religions that are helped out by rad guests, Drs. Fadeke Castor and Akissi Britton.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:Shout out to our brand new research assistant, Alex Castellano! A UVM religion undergrad, whose interests in gender, race and queerness are welcome contributions to this here team, and whose transcription work makes this pod accessible and therefore awesome. Need more religion nerdery? You know where to find us! It's Twitter. We're never not on Twitter. It's Twitter.
Megan Goodwin:That's accurate. You can find Megan (that's me!) on Twitter @mpgPhD and Ilyse@ProfIRMF, or the show@KeepingIt_101. Find the website at Keepingit101.com. Peep the insta, if you want. Drop us a rating or review in your podcatcher of choice. We might even get to shout you out on the-- on the pod! And with that... And do your homework! It's on the syllabus.
Ilyse Morgenstein Fuerst:Peace out, nerds!
Mel Brooks:*Inquisition from History of the World, Part 1*